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+--- Thread: Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) (/thread-6582.html)
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - Butcher - 08-06-2009
<!--quoteo(post=56165:date=Aug 6 2009, 06:14 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Aug 6 2009, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not going to call you or anyone specifically a liar. My previous post is the truth and what happened.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to let this die so it doesn't turn into another squeeze play thread. I've had an incredibly shitty day and typing the first things coming to my head right now would probably be something I would regret down the road.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - Fella - 08-06-2009
Kind of a pointless argument, but Butcher is 100% right.
In 2003 the move we were looking to make was always for a 3rd basemen. We were rumored to be looking at Mike Lowell all season, we had a huge hole at 3B. Ramirez was considered the fallback guy if we didn't get Lowell. I remember checking espn rumor central about Lowell and Ramirez pretty much every day in July. I also remember discussing in depth on ITI/Cubs talk, which 3rd baseman we would acquire, etc. etc.
It was never "The Lofton Trade" at least not on ITI or for me. Ramirez was the reason we made the deal. Lofton was a 2 month hired gun throw in. Ramirez was also hitting .280 with 12 Hr in 90 games when we made the deal, not quite .220 with no power and he already had a .300 30 100 year under his belt.
I definitely remember people saying "Lofton too?! fuck yeah!" but It was always the Ramirez trade. If you remember it the other way, you were either in the minority or you have a bad memory.
That said, I don't think anyone expected Ramirez to be as good as he has been, but we all knew he was a shitload better than what we had, and that he was gonna be around for a while.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - rok - 08-06-2009
That's how I remember it as well. I think people are forgetting just how bad our 3B situation was in 2003. Lofton was the greatest throw-in in Cubs trade history.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - MW4 - 08-06-2009
11 Pages...WTF?
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - Clapp - 08-06-2009
<!--quoteo(post=56185:date=Aug 6 2009, 07:22 PM:name=MW4)-->QUOTE (MW4 @ Aug 6 2009, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->11 Pages...WTF?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
About a White Sox thread I'd say that, but not a thread about the trade we made at the deadline.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - Gad - 08-07-2009
<!--quoteo(post=56158:date=Aug 6 2009, 04:48 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Aug 6 2009, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Pirates were done experimenting with him because they couldn't afford the experiment anymore. It's actually very similar to how the Adrian Beltre situation in Los Angeles was.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know this has nothing to do with the core argument here but you do realize that in Beltre's last season in Los Angeles he went .334-48-121 with an OPS of 1.017 and finished 2nd in the MVP voting?
Also, the Dodgers tried desperately to re-sign him after that season but he chose to take Seattle's offer on the advice of Scott Boras.. Sure letting him walk looks smart now given his enormous contract and mediocre performance but they definitely wanted him back.
So I really fail to see how the 2 situations are even remotely similar.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - Ace - 08-07-2009
<!--quoteo(post=56219:date=Aug 7 2009, 03:49 AM:name=Gad)-->QUOTE (Gad @ Aug 7 2009, 03:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=56158:date=Aug 6 2009, 04:48 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Aug 6 2009, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Pirates were done experimenting with him because they couldn't afford the experiment anymore. It's actually very similar to how the Adrian Beltre situation in Los Angeles was.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know this has nothing to do with the core argument here but you do realize that in Beltre's last season in Los Angeles he went .334-48-121 with an OPS of 1.017 and finished 2nd in the MVP voting?
Also, the Dodgers tried desperately to re-sign him after that season but he chose to take Seattle's offer on the advice of Scott Boras.. Sure letting him walk looks smart now given his enormous contract and mediocre performance but they definitely wanted him back.
So I really fail to see how the 2 situations are even remotely similar.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were similar before that year - the Dodgers were trying to trade Beltre. I remember, because the Cubs were looking at him.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - Coach - 08-07-2009
<!--quoteo(post=56179:date=Aug 6 2009, 06:48 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Aug 6 2009, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kind of a pointless argument, but Butcher is 100% right.
In 2003 the move we were looking to make was always for a 3rd basemen. We were rumored to be looking at Mike Lowell all season, we had a huge hole at 3B. Ramirez was considered the fallback guy if we didn't get Lowell. I remember checking espn rumor central about Lowell and Ramirez pretty much every day in July. I also remember discussing in depth on ITI/Cubs talk, which 3rd baseman we would acquire, etc. etc.
It was never "The Lofton Trade" at least not on ITI or for me. Ramirez was the reason we made the deal. Lofton was a 2 month hired gun throw in. Ramirez was also hitting .280 with 12 Hr in 90 games when we made the deal, not quite .220 with no power and he already had a .300 30 100 year under his belt.
I definitely remember people saying "Lofton too?! fuck yeah!" but It was always the Ramirez trade. If you remember it the other way, you were either in the minority or you have a bad memory.
That said, I don't think anyone expected Ramirez to be as good as he has been, but we all knew he was a shitload better than what we had, and that he was gonna be around for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual, Fella nailed it.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - veryzer - 08-07-2009
<!--quoteo(post=56165:date=Aug 6 2009, 06:14 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Aug 6 2009, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not going to call you or anyone specifically a liar. My previous post is the truth and what happened.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i hated choi and i was ecstatic that we traded him, so i know you ain't talkin 'bout me.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - bz - 08-08-2009
No.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - vitaminB - 08-10-2009
Can't someone please go look it up in the archives?
When you do you'll find that I was against the "Lofton" trade cause it was going to include a balding 3B with a suspect shoulder. Bam. Truth bomb.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - kbwsb - 08-10-2009
<!--quoteo(post=56794:date=Aug 10 2009, 03:19 PM:name=vitaminB)-->QUOTE (vitaminB @ Aug 10 2009, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Can't someone please go look it up in the archives?
When you do you'll find that I was against the "Lofton" trade cause it was going to include a balding 3B with a suspect shoulder. Bam. Truth bomb.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry, I was against Choi for Lee. (strictly for money reasons. Lee made $7 mil a year then, and Choi made $300k, 1/21 as much as Lee. I remember saying "Sure he's better than Choi, but is he 21 times better?"
The correct answer: 1,000 times better.)
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - rok - 08-10-2009
I had given up on Choi at that point, I mean did he ever show any improvement after a few seasons? I remember not giving two shits about the trade. I only disliked Lee because he was Marlin.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - veryzer - 08-10-2009
i couldn't stand choi. maybe it was because we spurned jim thome in favor him or because we traded grace because of him, or maybe it was because he had one good month. ever. i was glad we traded him and i was as ecstatic about ramirez as i was about lofton. hendry has done some good things.
Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny) - Butcher - 08-10-2009
<!--quoteo(post=56814:date=Aug 10 2009, 05:20 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 10 2009, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->i couldn't stand choi. maybe it was because we spurned jim thome in favor him or because we traded grace because of him, or maybe it was because he had one good month. ever. i was glad we traded him and i was as ecstatic about ramirez as i was about lofton. hendry has done some good things.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hendry has done some very good things -- and he had an incredible stretch of amazing trades.
Very good signings and trades:
- Ramirez/Lofton
- Lee for Choi
- the multi-team Nomar trade
- Gallagher and Murton for Harden and Gaudin
- the Lilly signing
After the Nomar trade, I was about ready to declare Hendry the best GM in the history of the game. He was looking like an absolute genius after Ramirez, Lee, and Nomar. The Maddux signing was pretty sweet, too. And the rotation of Wood/Prior/Z/Clement/Maddux looked like it was going to be one of the most dominant rotations ever.
Since after the 2004 season, his record is pretty spotty, and some of his signings and trades have left me scratching my head, but he has mostly been a solid GM.